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The First 10 Podcast
The First 10 Podcast
Understanding Imposter Syndrome with Pete Shepherd [#25]
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Pete Shepherd is the 6”7’ founder of Human Periscope, co-host of The Long and the Short podcast, and a head coach of Seth Godin’s altMBA, an online leadership, and management workshop. Pete specializes in helping leaders around the globe to develop, grow and create great change by allowing them to see things they can’t.
In this episode, Pete and Conor discuss the various strands of being a freelancer, breakthrough moments throughout Pete’s early coaching career, and understanding how to acknowledge and move forward with imposter syndrome. Key points covered include;
- Pete’s transition from the corporate world into freelance coaching.
- The process of discovery and the skill set of curiosity.
- The Human Periscope – helping someone see what they can’t see just yet.
- Building experience and confidence in coaching, and acquiring the first 10 customers.
- Unpacking the nugget of pitching and pricing.
- Managing marketing and maintaining momentum throughout the freelancer cycle.
- Exploring social media; finding purpose and joy within your chosen platforms.
- An insight to imposter syndrome and the impact of dancing with the universal feeling.
- Practical advice for freelancers at the beginning of their journey.
For over 10+ years Pete has worked in leadership and culture helping thousands of leaders, executives and changemakers launch just as many projects, businesses, and experiments right around the world.
Connect with Pete Shepherd:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/petershepherd3
The Long and the Short Podcast: A podcast for curious people with Peter Shepherd and Jen Waldman.
http://thelongandtheshortpodcast.com/
Pete Shelpherd’s blog – Noodle Scratchers
http://noodlescratchers.com/
Connect with First 10 Podcast host Conor McCarthy:
http://twitter.com/TheFirst10Pod
http://www.linkedin.com/in/comccart/
Resources:
Book recommendations:
The Prosperous Coach by Rich Litvin and Steve Chandler
The Win Without Pitching Manifesto by Blair Enns
http://www.winwithoutpitching.com/the-manifesto/
The Art of Possibility by Rosamund Stone Zander
http://rosamundzander.com/book-art-of-possibility.php
Steal Like an Artist by Austin Kleon
I feel like most people listening to this podcast, they want to do interesting work. They want to challenge the status quo. They want to be constantly curious and learning and trying new things. Now in order to do that, one way of thinking about it is, I just need to put myself in situations where I feel like an imposter.
Conor McCarthy:Hello, listeners, and welcome to the first 10 podcast. I'm your host, Conor McCarthy. And in each episode, I interview Business Builders on their first 10 customers, who they were, how they found them, how they talked to them, and what effect they had on their business so that you can learn what worked and what didn't. When I'm not recording podcasts, I help Business Builders find their first 10 customers and grow their businesses. I do that through one to one coaching, and a series of online workshops. please do check out my website Conor mccarthy.me. For more details and to sign up to my newsletter. I hope you enjoy the show. My guest today is Peter Shepherd, Pete and I met while coaching Seth Godin salt MBA, and he was amongst one of the first people I ever used the phrase internet friend about. We started our coaching practices about the same time, and we've had many, many conversations over the years about tackling the various strands of what it's like to be a freelancer. We've thrashed a lot together, over zoom and in person sometimes. And the results of those thrashings are right here for you all to hear today, Pete website says that he quote, helps leaders develop, grow and create change, unquote. And Pete definitely does that every day in so many ways. And on this podcast, he talks about his coaching methodology, including asking good questions, holding space, listening deeply, and generating trust. We talk a lot about the business end of running a freelance business and why it's so so important to get your head around that as soon as you can. Beat also details breakthrough moments on his early coaching path, including meeting is now collaborator Jen Waldman. He talks about experimenting with pricing, understanding his imposter syndrome, and also helping others do the same. And what he learned from his experience of moving from the corporate world to the freelancing world. Pete Shepard, thank you very, very much for taking the time to be here with us today.
Peter Shepherd:Thanks for having me, Connor. I'm very, very excited to be here. You are podcast host extraordinare. You're human Periscope. You're a freelance. You're a lot of things. But we first met. Doing the alt MBA is five years ago that we met, maybe five? I think it might be close to five years. Yeah, yeah. And even though you're based in Australia, we actually managed to beat a couple of times in person in the US. But when we first met you like me, we're also starting it as a coach.
Conor McCarthy:So do you want to tell us about that transition from what you were doing before into becoming a freelance coach?
Peter Shepherd:Yeah, yeah, I can give you the the quicksort story, it was a you know, long and arduous journey, as as a lot of these often are. But I, I, having taken the old MBAs a student was asked to point us back to be one of the coaches in the in the team. That's where I met you and a bunch of other amazing guests that have been on the show. And this weird thing kind of happened where I started to, I guess, have imposter syndrome around just the idea or the word, coach. And that framing of the skill set that we show up with in the NBA in particular. And as I got more and more into the workshop that we were coaching at the time, when I first met you, I eventually started to realise that the skill set required was actually the same skill set that I'd shown up with for the last. At that point, it was the previous six or seven years in a startup job that turned into a corporate job, working as a client relations manager, which was really around asking questions, holding space, helping clients solve problems, helping leaders in particular, create cultural behavioural change based programmes, like that was what I was doing full time. And I started to realise again, that long story short, I started to realise that same skill set can be used and is used as a coach. And so the more I sort of started doing it and getting more reps, the more I started to wonder, what would it look like if I did this on my own instead of doing this through this company that I was working for at the time and so that that was Like a very succinct summary of a very long arduous process over months and months of like, Can I should I will I want to die? How do you even start a business? What does it even look like? But yeah, this the short summary was I realised the skill set was very similar.
Conor McCarthy:Hmm, that's really interesting because a lot of a lot of freelancers start out by taking a skill or a set of skills they have and deciding that they can package those up and market them elsewhere. But you, you had a catalyst, maybe it was alt MBA, you know, maybe it was the like, the kind of the career path, you were on that moment to the career path. Was it difficult to I don't want to make it sound like a shopping list. But was it difficult to kind of put down on paper? Right, um, I've got to be a coach, and I'm going to, you know, here are the skills I'm going to bring. Um,
Peter Shepherd:I think it was, it was, it was less methodical than that. I think it was kind of this process of discovery as I coached leaders through that workshop. And then eventually what happened, I'm sure we'll talk about there was one particular catalyst catalyst, who is now my dear friend and podcast co host. There was this like series of events that kind of unfolded for me, that was experiential, as opposed to methodically listening skills. It was kind of a series of experiences that made me realise like an aha moment of, Oh, this is what you've been doing for six years in a different context. It's just packaged up slightly differently, and you're working with different people, and you're doing it in a different way. But the idea of coaching, you know, asking questions, holding space, being curious, opening doors, turning on lights, whatever metaphor you want to use, is a is a skill set that I recognise that I guess, as a curious human being I'd had for a while. So yeah, I guess to answer your question succinctly, it was experiential. As an aha moment, less and more so than it was like this methodical here are my skills. And this is what these skills could equal.
Conor McCarthy:Okay, yeah. They kind of reveal themselves over time. I like that. Exactly. Yeah. And I've watched you over the years, talk about and work on these skills, and it's amazing to see you it is your craft. You know, is there a Is there a way you think about how you work on those skills? Or is it? Is it the kind of putting in the reps with with coaching hours? Hmm,
Peter Shepherd:I think it's, I think it's perhaps both like, it's definitely reps, definitely reps. But what I've realised over the years is, the reps come in so many different contexts, when I started to realise when I launched a blog and started a podcast and started doing some speaking and started running group workshops, and like all of these other things. And looking back at my history, like we mentioned, I started to realise that the skill set of asking questions of holding space can actually be practising all of these different contexts. So I think about a really great podcasts, the hosts, usually, like you're doing now asks great questions, and then hold space for the people to respond. That's a pretty similar skill set to a coach. So it started off as I need to do all of this one on one coaching. And then eventually I realised, this skill set of being curious can be practice can be honed, in many, many, many different contexts. And as someone who likes to like try different things, and pick up different things and experiment with different ideas and formats, that really appealed to me, as someone who's going to try different things. So I sort of realised that over the journey as well,
Conor McCarthy:that's very good. I like that it's kind of meta, but it's a really, there's something kind of simple about it as well, which which makes it easier for you to go, Oh, this, this applies across the board. In a way you're always coaching, no matter when you're putting yourself out there when you're having conversations.
Peter Shepherd:Yeah, it was it was quite a quite a relieving realisation, to be honest, chronic, because I think in the past, I'd had certainly when I worked in corporate and startup and that kind of world was almost like I had two different selves. And I feel like I feel like I've heard this echoed through many people where, you know, you have your work self in, especially in a corporate job where you show up, you punch in and you kind of you behave in a way that is kind of in alignment with a corporate company culture. And then you kind of have this other like a little bit for me, it was like this little bit more rebellious self where I want to read these interesting books and challenge these ideas and asks these questions. And, you know, what if we did things this way, but it never quite fit into the corporate structure. And so it was kind of like exhausting having reflect to the personalities. And the beauty of eventually getting to this place where I realised that the same skill set can be practised across multiple disciplines was basically Oh, he had to show up as the same person no matter where you are. So if I'm coaching a leader one on one, I can finish that call. And then 10 minutes later hop on a workshop with a completely different group of people. But the same principle applies, I need to ask questions that are you hold space, I need to see what the leaders in that room you know, struggling with, which was quite relieving to not have to like tasks, which is much like that.
Conor McCarthy:And you How did you Think about your positioning as a coach. Because you know, it's important that when people come across your work, that either they feel that, you know, oh, pizza guy or also go, he's not my guy, which is totally fine as well. How did you and I look, this is an always evolving thing, of course. But like and we've had conversations in the past about how did you how did you think about it, you actually have a great kind of nickname phrase, if you like to talk about that. You made a human Periscope, you wouldn't have a periscope. That's it?
Peter Shepherd:Yeah, yeah. Which I sort of stumbled across after a conversation with my friend jen wallman, who I mentioned, I think earlier. And she kind of realised in doing this, you know, Simon Sinek style wire discovery that what you ultimately do as a coach, or as Pete is help people see things they can't, we will kind of like looking for a metaphor that, that or a symbol, I guess that speaks to that idea of helping someone see something that they can't quite see just yet. And the random story, there was my very first blog post ever, I actually refer to myself as a human Periscope. As a bit of a like side, you know, as a bit of a joke. It's a bit of a joke. And so that was the the story behind that. So having that helped, as like, Okay, I'm someone who helps people see things I can't. However, I will say like, I've really struggled. And I think still a little bit, but I'm getting a lot better at the whole positioning thing. And I remember actually getting, I think I reached out to you and was like, Can we have a chat about this? Because you're someone that I respect and admire who talks about their work in a really great way. And we, we probably bonded over the thrash, like, how do you? How do you do this? What do you say? So I don't know if I did a great job of it. To be honest, other than I had that, that like simple that metaphor of when in doubt, I say, okay, so it's like a periscope, you know, you can see things that you can't, and most people were able to kind of grasp that. I think what I was lucky to get access to, which is, you know, again, just been very much a place of luck has been a lot of word of mouth at an at an early stage, which meant that the pitching, if you like, in air quotes, was a bit easier because I came through my first few clients came through trusted sources via word of mouth. So there was less friction of like, Who is this guy? Why do I need to talk to this guy? So I was very lucky in that sense, I think,
Conor McCarthy:to to talk about those those moments. Because again, I know you so well, that I kind of saw saw it happening. And it's very, it is a very unique journey. But But let's get into it, because this is firsthand. And this is this is how you found your first 10.
Peter Shepherd:Yeah, so the I guess I hinted at a few of the things along the way. But essentially what happened is, having coached the old MBA and met you met a bunch of other brilliant people. One of the students that I was actually lucky enough, fortunate enough to coach was this lady by the name of Jen woman. And her and I had a one on 120 minute call, where she would say that she had sort of trajectory of how she was thinking about her business. I would say I was feeling like an imposter. And I just showed up and asked a couple of questions. And what transpired as a result of that was, it's kind of mind blowing to look back on it. But basically what happened is Jen said, Oh, once this workshops finished, can I hire you as a coach? And at this point, I was still working at a company. And I was like, Huh. And this was kind of the catalyst to kind of jumping around in terms of chronology, chronology. But this was the catalyst for me thinking, Oh, the skill set you've had for four years. It's a similar skill set. So she got me into this frame of mind of, okay, so if someone else wants to hire you, as a coach, what would that look like? And she very generously said, like, this is how I think it could work. I want to chat to you every month, and I want to pay you and let's talk about what that would look like. And I actually intentionally I haven't really talked about this, but I intentionally made the decision not to charge Jen money, but I decided, based on a few ideas that I could get paid through other means, like, practice, experience, a case study, maybe word of mouth referrals, maybe some testimonials, and all of those things became true. So having worked with Jen for like three months, then it became let's do a fortnightly call, then it became let's do a call every week that it became these like, three hour conversations. And which led to a whole different series of conversations, but but through that process, what I was able to get was obviously experience and confidence in coaching others, which then helps me talk about to your point, this idea of human Periscope, and what does that look like and helping others see things they can't Okay, and who were the other groups I could serve? And so it was really weird in a way because I was coaching Jen, but was getting so much out of that experience, it was almost like she was coaching me in reverse. And eventually it got to the point where I left my job. And I remember still remember this conversation as one of the calls with Jen, I was so nervous. In the last like five minutes. I was like, oh, before you go, you've said to me a few times that I should do more of this coaching for other people. So I was just wondering if you know, anyone that wouldn't fit that mould? Could you let me know? And she was like, of course, like, that was the domino she sent she sent an email to I don't know how many people it felt like 100. And because you know, the first like, four emails feels like you get 40 emails, you're like, Oh, my God, I can't believe someone wants to talk to me about doing this thing that I just decided that I would start doing more of. And so that was the that was the catalyst that was where the word of mouth started to come from.
Conor McCarthy:Hmm, that's really, really addressed to you. Like, you really did look at with Jen. Like, she's, she's, she's a wonderful person. And but I suppose the really interesting thing in there, is that your nervousness about asking, you know, totally, do you mind introducing or just telling people? Yeah, I totally get that. Did you? Had you ever kind of made it clear with Jen, that, you know, in other ways, it would be great if, if you could, if she could help you to kind of start your coaching career? Was that the first moment that she might have gone? Oh, yeah. Pete, Pete wants to get more clients? No, I
Peter Shepherd:was, I was pretty upfront with her. Because she kept very generously saying, How do I pay you? Where am I paying you? What's your fee structure? And I was kind of like, it's okay. Let me try and figure this out as a thing, basically, okay, as how I might approach this, like, I don't even know if it's gonna work, I really enjoyed this conversation. So it was pretty transparent. I think she knew that I was, I was kind of dipping my toe in the water as to what it might be like to be a freelancer, really. And I think knowing Jen's wisdom, she saw that. And I think she probably also thought, even when he feels the need to ask for my help, he will ask for my help. And, and she was right. That was that was eventually what happened.
Conor McCarthy:And were there any other first 10 customers in those early days that stood out in terms of where they came from? Or, or even something you did that, you know, was more, I suppose intentional, we kind of went, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go out and sell my coaching services. You know, and there is going to be a financial transaction. And there's going to be a proper, like a proper kind of setup if you like.
Peter Shepherd:Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny because the, the getting the email and the word of mouth was one thing. But then I knew what would come from that was potentially the conversation around. So what does this look like? How much do you charge? And what is this practice? And like, what does it look like? So it was kind of like, it was really exciting to get this word of mouth, conversation starters. And then on the rabbit hole of what happens next, how I still haven't quite solved how I structure this. In terms of like, in particular, around financials, I think a lot of freelancers. I know you and I've spoken about this a lot of like, the thrash and the confusion of pricing and value and worth and all that it's like a quite a hard nugget to, to wrap your head around anyway. And I remember I, at this point, I listened to so many books, listen to 1000s of podcasts, you know, all that freelancing and pricing and how to how to value yourself. And I think I probably went too far. I distinctly remember a few conversations that I, you know, because it was a lot of a lot of the marketing that I consumed, at least a lot of the content I consume was around, don't undersell yourself, don't undersell yourself, don't? And I was like, Alright, well, I'm not gonna understand myself. So the first conversation was kind of like, it's this match. And they were like, Whoa, that's a lot of money. I was like, Okay, good feedback. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. So the first few conversations, while they didn't end up, they didn't actually end up turning into clients, I was able to get a lot of valuable feedback and signals from the market, through even being able to have those conversations and propose those things. And so what that eventually taught me was, you know, pricing structures. The way that we can orchestrate an agreement as a freelancer across any industry is like an experiment and it can change and you can flex and you can decide to structure things in a way that you believe is appropriate at that point in time. And so I was a bit I think I was a bit too consumed by the lack 20. I went from like, not charging Jen anything to like, okay, so you have to charge I mean, it wasn't that much, but in my head, it was like you have to charge a certain amount and it's got to be a good amount of a lot of money because you don't want to get sucked down the tube of selling your time for nothing. And in the end, the feedback was like, that's probably a little too sweet. Pull it back.
Conor McCarthy:Really, really interesting idea. It is an ongoing thing. But I think what's really interesting in there that you said, it's like you may you kind of made small bets, you had coaching conversations, and you put a price out there. And that always, that always feels weird, especially when you're starting off like, Okay, how much does this cost? Silence kind of a number said further silence. What happened? What happens in that silence? Actually, ad? How do you treat that silence after a number
Peter Shepherd:of time? I think, yeah, I guess the thing I didn't say that I hear back in what you said, which was definitely deliberate was my my strategy, if you like, in air quotes of getting around pitching was to demonstrate the skill if you like. So instead of pitching people on what it feels like to be coached, I would just coach people for it. Like I would do an hour and a half initial calls when I started. And just basically just coach the crap out of someone for an hour and a half, ask questions, say, How can I help? Where do you need me? What what are you working on? What does that mean? Have you thought about this? What about that? And like, at the end of the 90 minutes, I was like, Whoa, so what does this look like moving forward? Like, how do you structure coaching? And I was like, Oh, it's basically what we just did. So I guess, I guess I yeah, my pitch was show that like, do the thing. And I found that to be I can't remember where I got that nugget from it was definitely from a resource. But I found that to be it might have been the book called The prosperous coach, which is a strange title, but a really, really good book, I highly recommend it. And, yeah, and basically, instead of pitching demonstrate by doing and that, as someone who cringes a little bit talking about themselves and pitching again, in air quotes, I really liked the idea of just do the thing, and give them the experience, and then let them decide.
Conor McCarthy:Yeah, I love that there is because there's so little strategizing, if you like, you know, in the sense of you're kind of not sitting there going, What do I say? What do I not say? What do I hold back? what's what's part, what's part of the quote, unquote, package? And what's part of this discovery call? And like, I'm not a huge fan of those words, but they can be useful labels at times. But But your approach, which I think, again, it's kind of simple as in, how about I just coached this person out at the end? If they're like, wow, this is, this is brilliant, then the conversation about money is like, now you know what you get? There's no, there's no hidden three point plan that's going to show up in a PDF at a later stage that you're kind of going well, what is that? So you already know what you're getting? I think that's really smart.
Peter Shepherd:Yeah, and I wanted to always be, I always wanted to be approached to be one rooted in generosity. And, you know, obviously, trust and openness and transparency. And I think that there was no expectation and I would say this, if, if you've got enough out of this hour and a half, and you don't need any, like, you'd never want to talk to me again, that's okay. Like, I think that that there was some level of Yeah, generosity and, and while it was I also found a just an easier way of, to me it was like this is easier than pitching, I would rather coach someone for an hour and a half and half the pitch.
Conor McCarthy:Totally. I hope you're enjoying this episode, and that there's some actionable and insightful advice that you can take out to your business, helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast and want more information, including a bunch of free resources on how to find your first 10 customers and grow your business, check out first 10 podcast.com, that's 10 one, zero, or find me on Twitter at the first 10 apart. Now, you probably hear what I'm about to say on every podcast you listen to. And it makes a really big difference to the show. If you find this podcast in any way useful or enjoyable, I'd be so grateful. If you left me a review on iTunes, it really does make a big difference in terms of other people discovering the podcast. Also, if you leave a review, you will get to see your name on the review. In lights. What I'll do is I'll design your words and post them online. I'm taking you and your project along with it. I know it's a pretty sweet deal. Okay, let's get on with the show. How do you manage your marketing? that's a that's a big question, I suppose, you know, how do you how do you go from your coaching and your clients and things are going well, to ensuring that you know, in future, you don't hit this point, this kind of the low end of the roller coaster where you're like, Oh, actually that work has dried up and I have nothing coming down the pipeline. Is there a way that you try to maintain momentum with your marketing?
Peter Shepherd:The Freelancer cycle I call it I feel like I go through that dip. Still a lot. That dip of i think i think they speaking as freelancers we love doing the work like I just describe to you for 10 minutes how much I loved, even when I wasn't getting paid doing the coaching call, because we love doing the work. Regardless of what the work is, as a freelancer, what we don't like, in my experience is working on the business. And your friend that is marketing is that what does it look like to set yourself up your future self up to have more opportunities to continue to do the work? That is really hard, especially when the works in front of you? And you're like, oh, but I have these clients, and I'm working with them. So what do I need to worry about? And I've gone through many, many times, that moment of like, oh, oh, when this when this contract finishes up, or when this project finishes up, what is next. And then you kind of swing into a bit of a panic. So I don't know if I have a perfect system for that. In fact, I know I don't have a perfect system for this. But the thing that I always really liked was, firstly, just the mental model of getting clear on those are the two things, doing the work versus working on the business. And once I had that distinction in my head, I was like, Okay, cool. So I need to make time for both of those on any given day really. But particularly on any given week, I try and look at structuring my weeks in a way to be I've done some work on the business, and then I've done the work itself. So that is a mental model has been really helpful. Now what that actually looks like very tactically, I've, like experimented with various things, whether it be I mean, I have a podcast. So I like to think that in some way that's, that's putting the experience of working with people out into the world, which is creating a change in someone because we have some listeners. And so that, to me is a form of marketing. It's a little less direct, which I kind of like to be honest. And and then, you know, I have a blog. And so I guess there's a bunch of there's a bunch of content that I do each week, which I consider to be on some level working on the business. And yeah, maybe I'll just pause there, but that that mental model in particular has been really helpful. Does that make sense?
Conor McCarthy:No, no, it's huge. And this is like, we talked about it before we started recording like I'm working on this. This accountability group called the freelancer marketing cabinet at the moment, and it came out of the realisation from another coach friend, Amir was talking to him about this exact problem. And it was like a, you know, freelancing in your junior thing. And he was like, well, your job is really to, to freelance is to sell your freelance services. And that was and it was like, Oh, that's, that's the reframe I needed is like, because yes, we love doing the work. But there will be less we tell people that this work exists. That's really good. Yeah. And it was one of those things that probably applies to everything I remember even back in my kind of festival days when, like we quite a successful festival in Irish terms. And other people who wants to start festivals came to a saying, oh, help us start a festival. And my first bit of advice was always like, what, how are you going to run the business? Because it's, it's great to want to start the new festival of interesting hats, or whatever it is. I heard all kinds of ideas professionals back in the day. But how are you actually going to market this? What about your cash flow? What you know, how are you going to set up the company? Oh, super boring back office stuff. But without that stuff? Unfortunately, your interesting hat festival is not going to go ahead.
Unknown:Yeah, you know,
Peter Shepherd:I think I think I probably needed you at that point. Because I don't think especially when I started, I did not do a good job of this. And I was very lucky, very fortunate that I was able to scrap and I've made it work. And that's for I think there's a few reasons in particular, one of which was Jen. And the other, which I think was being lucky enough to be involved in the alt MBA meant that in any given quarter, because we'd run the alt MBA four times a year, I knew I was going to have the opportunity potentially to coach so I had some sort of add some safety nets, I guess. But I definitely didn't start off with a really solid marketing plan, like like your friend.
Conor McCarthy:One thing, actually, while we're talking about marketing, you know a lot of freelancers, when they start out, there's this feeling that I need to be on social media, I need to know I need to have a podcast and he tell a blog. And all of a sudden that the body of work, that body of work alone becomes immediately overwhelming. And I find it often it's unclear. The who's the for what is it for around that. What would you say about people who are in the thick of that kind of confusion? Yeah, I
Peter Shepherd:mean, I'm sort of right there with them. In that. I have. I'm denied and hemmed and hawed about what to do about social media and the like. I can't, I can't say that it's not effective because I think there are plenty of examples of people who've made great businesses and great freelance Careers Out of really great social media. My experience has been one where I've found more benefit, and certainly more joy, which is maybe the more important thing from my perspective, I've gotten far more joy out of focusing on content that is a podcast, with a friend and content that is a writing practice, which is a blog, which I really enjoy. And I fairly intentionally made the decision to focus my energy there. And yet, even even still, I sometimes find myself like, oh, maybe I should do a little bit more content on Instagram. Because the lure is just, it's just like, I mean, it's literally programmed to be there. So I have a very odd and confusing and slightly anxiety ridden, slightly anxiety inducing relationship with social media. You know, I don't love it. And I recognise I've, there's been some value I've got from it, like I have got a client from from Instagram before because someone else posted about me. And so I recognise there's like some level of value in that. But I've, I've chosen not to really opt into marketing my business that much through Instagram.
Conor McCarthy:Yeah, this is that that's really good advice. One thing you said in there was the word joy. And sometimes there is that feeling of, Oh, I think I should be on Twitter. But oh, I just really don't like it. And that's like forcing yourself in to squeeze into a platform shape is obviously not the right thing to do. But is there I suppose the scarcity mindset of but there might be business for me over there. I think joy is a good word maybe to, to hold on to and thinking about that. There's the idea of kind of being comfortable in your in your chosen platform. So podcasting and writing, are two you mentioned is I think, really important. Because if you're gonna have to show up at whatever platform it is, and do it consistently and get better at it, then pick something you're happy to do that it I guess.
Peter Shepherd:Yeah. And I think the other thing is it. The there are various platforms that suit certain skill sets, so certain free careers. So like, if you're a photographer, I imagine I'm speaking at a school, but I haven't Well, I have a bunch of friends who have freelance photographers, and they have unbelievably beautiful Instagram accounts. Yeah, yeah. And I imagine that's quite a smart use of their skill. If you're a speaker, and a coach and a workshop facilitator, like, Is it important that you can post a nice photo on Instagram? Not really, it's more important that at least the story I've told myself, so I can avoid social media, is that it's more important for me to be able to make assertions, ask questions hold space, and what's a good platform for that a podcast? And what's another good platform for that writing? Because you get to think out loud. So I think looking at the skill set of a particular freelance job, might actually also help determine Where's a good use of your energy?
Conor McCarthy:Yes, yes, totally. And considering your your ideal customer as well, like, where are they going to hang out? You know, like, if if you coach C suite execs, let's say, like, very, very high level management. What are the chances of being Instagram, what it has to be on Twitter? What the chances are going to be a LinkedIn much higher? Or, you know, what are the chances that they will read blogs about management plus coaching, you know, sort of kind of almost reversing yourself that way into it. And some people just aren't on social media, you know, let's say elder generations, etc, I find people are they're like, No, I just rely on my friends and my network. So the only way that they're going to buy a freelance service is they're going to call their friend and say, Hey, do you know anyone who does coaching,
Peter Shepherd:I love that one of the most useful exercises I ever did was listing out I'm trying to remember where I got this, there might have been the freelancers workshop on the akimbo platform, listing out the last 10 things that you purchased through a freelancer and then looking at how you came to make that decision. And I when I remember, when I did this, I think nine of the 10 were because someone else told me about this company or this thing. So it was, so I was like, for me, word of mouth is basically everything. So if someone is trying to market something to me, and they're trying to do it through Instagram, like using myself as the as the subject, they're gonna have very little luck. But if if they get to a friend of mine, and a friend of mine tells me about it, they're gonna increase the likelihood a lot. So I love what you mentioned this like, empathetic shock. I like empathetic marketing or framing yourself in a way that is empathetic to Who are the people I'm trying to serve? One of the platforms they are on. Okay, cool. Let me go there and help them make that decision.
Conor McCarthy:Yeah, yeah. Who is it for? Always? That's one of the things you and I have learned at a deep level. Yeah, shocker.
Peter Shepherd:Every day you realise it's still it's still there. It's still really nice.
Conor McCarthy:Yeah. Your your podcast with Jen. The long the short of it. is one of my favourite podcasts, I really, really mean that I was actually listening to it this morning before this. So I've got a recording of Pete Shepard, and I constantly take notes on it or listen to episodes twice as I think it's really great. What's interesting about it is you kind of go a level deeper on money topics. So you'll pick even sometimes it's even you'll pick a word like failure. But you'll really get into that. And one of the things that's come up time and again, I'd love to ask you about is imposter syndrome. And don't talk for a minute about what imposter syndrome looks like for you. And how do you coach people around that? It's funny,
Peter Shepherd:I think one of the reasons I really like thinking about or talking about or unpacking imposter syndrome is because I just realised that so many experiences that I've been fortunate enough to have, have been kind of the epitome of being an imposter. And I feel like every time I put my name in one of those situations, I feel like an imposter, like a fraud, like a fake like a phoney. Like you don't deserve to be there. And this goes right back to you know, being nominated school captain in grade six. Like who the hell am I with school captain in grade six, or my first internship, while I was still at university, I got to work for the state government. And one of the jobs that we had was looking after Prince William when he came to visit Victoria and like, Who the hell am I and his one year old, Shaggy haired kid with braces, you know, and a suit that doesn't even fit me and I'm here I'm with like, Prince Woot. Like, I just feel like I'm the definition of an imposter in so many different ways. And, and so I get really interested in thinking about that. And, and something that Seth Godin actually said, which really started to resonate with me was like, this is a feeling that is universal. And this is a feeling that comes about when we're doing something that we've never done before. So actually, by definition, of course, you're an imposter because you're doing something that you haven't done before. So you can't possibly be qualified, or you can't possibly have known what it's like to work with Prince William or if it's the first time you're writing a book, it's the first time you writing a book, you can't you can't be a qualified author, the moment you start writing your first book. And so he kind of frames it as outside of, you know, surgeons or lawyers or people who genuinely need a certain hard skill to do a skill to do a thing. A lot of these real human softer skills or leadership positions, if you like, or opportunities even or freelance careers. The kind of imposter syndrome that we should look for, and actually use as a compass, which is the moment that you are going to learn something new, grow and do work. That's interesting, because I feel like most people listening to this podcast, they want to do interesting work, they want to challenge the status quo, they want to be constantly curious and learning and trying new things. Now, in order to do that, one way of thinking about it is, I just need to put myself in situations where I feel like an imposter. And, yeah, I mean, I could talk about this for hours, I've spoken a TEDx about imposter syndrome. And like you mentioned, Jen and I talked about a lot in our podcast, but I think it's a useful, a useful frame for thinking about growing pains. Like this is a part of me growing and learning something new. And I actually think that you don't get rid of it, you don't crush it, it doesn't go away. That the, between those who I guess, fall down to imposter syndrome or or or succumb to it versus those who move forward. It's really about what do you do with it? Can you figure out a way to what I've talked about in the past is dance with it? And and sort of say give it a voice? You know, I see you I hear you. Okay, so I feel like a fraud. Interesting. And here's what I'm gonna do about that.
Conor McCarthy:Right. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Because, again, you talked about a lot and even you mentioned Seth Godin on your good Seth was a guest on your was the first and only so far. guest on your, on your podcast. He said something that Jen picked up on he was like, he felt imposter syndrome still feels that what is launching a new project. But what Jen pointed out was like, Yes, but he's also the pioneer of so many takes, that that the imposter syndrome means you're on the path to becoming a pioneer net. Nothing that you know, not capital P pioneer, but just you know, you're creating something new. You're leading the charge here.
Peter Shepherd:I think but capital P pioneer, you can't be a capital P pioneer without having been an imposter at some point. So it's like, it's like it's an it's a necessary part of that journey.
Conor McCarthy:Mm hmm. I love that. You're, uh, you're you mentioned earlier, you've listened to a lot of audio books. I know you read a lot. We've read a lot of say books, any books that lead for you that have helped you on your freelance journey? I know you mentioned the prosperous coach. That's definitely going in the shownotes. It could be about the business of being a freelancer. But it can also be about you know, how do you understand people or yourself better?
Peter Shepherd:I mean, I could Talk about favourite books all day. I think freelance specific I did mention the prosperous coach. And it was I mean, for me, I think this would apply to a lot of freelancers, regardless of whether you want to go down the executive or leadership coaching path, or whatever it is, is a super helpful book really practical, really tactical, quite contrarian, which I always appreciate. The other one, like specific to the industry, or the world of freelancing that I actually really like, was a book called The wind without pitching Manifesto. I think that's what it's called. Yeah, not so obviously heard of it. That's it. That that I found, at a at a really important time, I think was probably when I was going through one of those dips of the freelance cycle of like, Where am I next few clients coming from? And what are the next opportunities and projects that you've been building? And I read this book that when without pitching manifesto in it, it really, it really, really resonated with me.
Unknown:And
Peter Shepherd:I'm trying to think if there's any others off the top of my head that I mean, I think they're the two specific to freelancing in terms of like impactful books over the journey. I can, I can now many, many, many, you know, the audit possibility and steal like an artist with were really, really profoundly impactful for me at the right moment. And yeah, I guess I'll just go with those because I could just list books forever, otherwise, everyone will have a list of hundreds of
Conor McCarthy:diverse dead books. So just as a last question, I always ask, you know, what practical advice would you give to someone just starting out to find their first 10 customers? I think,
Peter Shepherd:I guess a couple of things. One is, don't feel like you need to quit your job to start a freelance career. Because I feel like that gets romanticised and talked about far too much. And I think about this six months, almost that I worked with Jen, on the side of working a full time job was so profoundly helpful. Because it wasn't the pressure of having to make it my career or pay the bills. And so I had the luxury of being able to say I won't charge and I'll learn from the experience. So I think that in particular, and other advice, I think, I would say, figure out a way, or try and think about a way to serve folks through word of mouth. And that the first, the first 10 in particular, I think they're probably closer to you than you realise. And this in my experience goes hand in hand with something like social media where you think you need 1000s of followers, because there's, there's more chance of getting the 10. But I actually think if you look at the inner circle, like for me, it was January help me get someone to help me get this person to help me get that person before I even looked beyond that little tiny network that I had. So I think like I think I don't know what the actual nugget of advice is other than like, look closer to your inner circle than you may think. For those first few.
Conor McCarthy:Yeah, I love that. Coming from a pro come from an expert. That makes a lot of sense. You know, it's not it's, it's something that quite a few people have said, because I think starting out as a freelancer Yeah, you need to, like where do you go this? What do I do, but literally just sometimes I've I've coached people, because they're ready to get your phone out, we're just gonna go through your phone. And it's amazing. You can get 10 or 15 names or like I would, I would happily call that person to talk to them about my new business or to see if they know someone who needs my new business. It's like, it can be that easy.
Peter Shepherd:Yeah, and I think that last point is really important is the tent. These these people that you identified don't have to be the customer per se. But they might know someone who could be the customer. So I think that's a totally, I love that, like pull out your phone and just look through your contacts. There's probably 10 people in there that would be willing to help you.
Conor McCarthy:Yes, yeah. Another way to say that is who, you know, who would be more than happy to help me. There's who would be my customer to your point and then also, who would be more than happy to help you find those customers? Yeah, yeah. Interesting. I couldn't figure it out on the podcast, doing it live running through my scroll through phone. This is like it's always fun to have a chat with you. But this has been fantastic because it's great to kind of pick apart I suppose your your early days and your ongoing journey and you've learned so much and you share so much. And I really thank you for that. I think people should check out your blog. Check out your podcast with Jen. It's short, it's sweet. I think it's brilliant. added the added skills you want to say anywhere people should find you not at all just
Peter Shepherd:Thanks for having me. Connor I always love a chance to chat with you. And the fact that we got to record it was just made it even funner
Conor McCarthy:absolutely cool. Talk to you soon.
Unknown:Next month
Conor McCarthy:next time on the first 10 podcast, Margot Sharon shares the most valuable lesson she learned on turning meetings into sales. Let me tell you, Hunter I closed 90% of deals after Oh my god, like it changed my life. Thought and more on the next episode of the first 10 podcast.